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	<title>Comments on: A Bit About Benchmarks</title>
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	<link>http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/245?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=a-bit-about-benchmarks</link>
	<description>It&#039;s not enough to be smart; you have to actually know things.</description>
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		<title>By: Andreas Ravn</title>
		<link>http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/245/comment-page-1#comment-157928</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas Ravn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paul-m-jones.com/blog/?p=245#comment-157928</guid>
		<description>@samoht:

Your question: so what?
The answer: Solar is more responsive than the other frameworks as measured in this benchmark.

Measuring a complete application (which would be different from measuring a framework) would be impossible and yield uncomparable results, especially since Solar does not endorse/force any specific scheme for database access yet (which for most frameworks is the bottleneck in an application).

One approach to measure theoretical &quot;real world&quot; performance would be splitting out the ORM systems and compare those, splitting out the template/view systems and compare those, and (guess what&#039;s next) benchmark the bare bone frameworks (request handling and dispatching) themselves (like Paul did). The sum of these could possibly indicate which framework would be faster. And that&#039;s not even considering scaling issues!

If someone demands a responsive framework, the best choice based on Pauls benchmark would be Solar. I don&#039;t see anything wrong with that. However basing the choice of framework only on a single narrow benchmark is a stupid act and this responsibility couldn&#039;t possibly be attributed to Paul for publishing his benchmark results.

Dangerous benchmarks? Nah, only dangerous decision makers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@samoht:</p>
<p>Your question: so what?<br />
The answer: Solar is more responsive than the other frameworks as measured in this benchmark.</p>
<p>Measuring a complete application (which would be different from measuring a framework) would be impossible and yield uncomparable results, especially since Solar does not endorse/force any specific scheme for database access yet (which for most frameworks is the bottleneck in an application).</p>
<p>One approach to measure theoretical &#8220;real world&#8221; performance would be splitting out the ORM systems and compare those, splitting out the template/view systems and compare those, and (guess what&#8217;s next) benchmark the bare bone frameworks (request handling and dispatching) themselves (like Paul did). The sum of these could possibly indicate which framework would be faster. And that&#8217;s not even considering scaling issues!</p>
<p>If someone demands a responsive framework, the best choice based on Pauls benchmark would be Solar. I don&#8217;t see anything wrong with that. However basing the choice of framework only on a single narrow benchmark is a stupid act and this responsibility couldn&#8217;t possibly be attributed to Paul for publishing his benchmark results.</p>
<p>Dangerous benchmarks? Nah, only dangerous decision makers.</p>
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		<title>By: samoht</title>
		<link>http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/245/comment-page-1#comment-155518</link>
		<dc:creator>samoht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 10:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paul-m-jones.com/blog/?p=245#comment-155518</guid>
		<description>@Andreas..

Question: How did Paul benchmark the &quot;current state of framework request dispatch responsiveness&quot;?
Answer: With a &quot;hello world&quot;-app.

It is still a test of the response-time of the framework serving a single static page. Yes it shows, that one framework servs a static page faster than another one. But my question still is: So what? No one uses a framework to serve a single static page. If u want to test frameworks use a &quot;real app&quot; with database connections and.. and.. and..

The reason I think, why such benchmarks are a little &quot;dangerous&quot; is: Many not much experienced developers read such benchmarks and think... &quot;hey this one ist the fastest - cool its the best&quot;. (Just read the replys to the numerous benchmarks on the web). 
I dont want to prevent anyone frome making his decisions based on such benchmarks - but I want to tell them, that this would be a mistake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Andreas..</p>
<p>Question: How did Paul benchmark the &#8220;current state of framework request dispatch responsiveness&#8221;?<br />
Answer: With a &#8220;hello world&#8221;-app.</p>
<p>It is still a test of the response-time of the framework serving a single static page. Yes it shows, that one framework servs a static page faster than another one. But my question still is: So what? No one uses a framework to serve a single static page. If u want to test frameworks use a &#8220;real app&#8221; with database connections and.. and.. and..</p>
<p>The reason I think, why such benchmarks are a little &#8220;dangerous&#8221; is: Many not much experienced developers read such benchmarks and think&#8230; &#8220;hey this one ist the fastest &#8211; cool its the best&#8221;. (Just read the replys to the numerous benchmarks on the web).<br />
I dont want to prevent anyone frome making his decisions based on such benchmarks &#8211; but I want to tell them, that this would be a mistake.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Loud Baking &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Choosing a development framework</title>
		<link>http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/245/comment-page-1#comment-154535</link>
		<dc:creator>Loud Baking &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Choosing a development framework</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paul-m-jones.com/blog/?p=245#comment-154535</guid>
		<description>[...] - Taking a look at ten different PHP frameworks, by Dennis Pallett - CodeIgniter vs. CakePHP, by Jonathan Snook - New Year&#8217;s Benchmarks and A Bit About Benchmarks, by Paul M. Jones - Glue vs. Full Stack  and More framework fun, by Chris Hartjes - Comparing Frameworks, by Tim Bray [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8211; Taking a look at ten different PHP frameworks, by Dennis Pallett &#8211; CodeIgniter vs. CakePHP, by Jonathan Snook &#8211; New Year&#8217;s Benchmarks and A Bit About Benchmarks, by Paul M. Jones &#8211; Glue vs. Full Stack  and More framework fun, by Chris Hartjes &#8211; Comparing Frameworks, by Tim Bray [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Andreas Ravn</title>
		<link>http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/245/comment-page-1#comment-152342</link>
		<dc:creator>Andreas Ravn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jun 2007 12:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paul-m-jones.com/blog/?p=245#comment-152342</guid>
		<description>Even though Lukas may be right in that the framework communities found this as an statement about which framework is faster in general, that is still not an excuse for the fact that they still have missed the point about this benchmark.

Paul didn&#039;t create a starting point for benchmarks (even though that may be a side effect). He benchmarked the current state of framework request dispatch responsiveness at that time. That&#039;s all there is to it.

There&#039;s no need to understand the &quot;point&quot; of benchmarking an hello world app -- because he didn&#039;t benchmark an hello world app!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even though Lukas may be right in that the framework communities found this as an statement about which framework is faster in general, that is still not an excuse for the fact that they still have missed the point about this benchmark.</p>
<p>Paul didn&#8217;t create a starting point for benchmarks (even though that may be a side effect). He benchmarked the current state of framework request dispatch responsiveness at that time. That&#8217;s all there is to it.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no need to understand the &#8220;point&#8221; of benchmarking an hello world app &#8212; because he didn&#8217;t benchmark an hello world app!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bitter000</title>
		<link>http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/245/comment-page-1#comment-151391</link>
		<dc:creator>bitter000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jun 2007 03:48:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paul-m-jones.com/blog/?p=245#comment-151391</guid>
		<description>A â€œhello worldâ€ benchmark  could show us the overheads of a framework.

The overheads are not worth for every projects/software.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A â€œhello worldâ€ benchmark  could show us the overheads of a framework.</p>
<p>The overheads are not worth for every projects/software.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Daboo</title>
		<link>http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/245/comment-page-1#comment-151324</link>
		<dc:creator>Daboo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paul-m-jones.com/blog/?p=245#comment-151324</guid>
		<description>If speed was the key to adoption and success, I think Struts is an UFO, as all the most used frameworks in the IT world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If speed was the key to adoption and success, I think Struts is an UFO, as all the most used frameworks in the IT world.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: samoht</title>
		<link>http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/245/comment-page-1#comment-151320</link>
		<dc:creator>samoht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paul-m-jones.com/blog/?p=245#comment-151320</guid>
		<description>Hi all..

I pretty much have to agree with Lukas.
I dont really understand the intention behind a &quot;hello world&quot; test with fully, featured application frameworks.

Frameworks are only usefull for applications which do a little more, than printing out static pages. And this was pretty much M. Zaninottos point - that no one should judge a framework based on a &quot;hello world&quot; benchmark - and there I absolutly agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi all..</p>
<p>I pretty much have to agree with Lukas.<br />
I dont really understand the intention behind a &#8220;hello world&#8221; test with fully, featured application frameworks.</p>
<p>Frameworks are only usefull for applications which do a little more, than printing out static pages. And this was pretty much M. Zaninottos point &#8211; that no one should judge a framework based on a &#8220;hello world&#8221; benchmark &#8211; and there I absolutly agree.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: developercast.com &#187; Paul Jones&#8217; Blog: A Bit About Benchmarks</title>
		<link>http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/245/comment-page-1#comment-151237</link>
		<dc:creator>developercast.com &#187; Paul Jones&#8217; Blog: A Bit About Benchmarks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paul-m-jones.com/blog/?p=245#comment-151237</guid>
		<description>[...] In response to a previous article from the Symfony blog, Paul Jones has pulled together some thoughts to some of the comments they made.   As the author of a relatively popular benchmarking article, I feel compelled to respond to this bit of misguided analysis from the Symfony camp about benchmarks. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In response to a previous article from the Symfony blog, Paul Jones has pulled together some thoughts to some of the comments they made.   As the author of a relatively popular benchmarking article, I feel compelled to respond to this bit of misguided analysis from the Symfony camp about benchmarks. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: PHPDeveloper.org</title>
		<link>http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/245/comment-page-1#comment-151178</link>
		<dc:creator>PHPDeveloper.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paul-m-jones.com/blog/?p=245#comment-151178</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Paul Jones&#039; Blog: A Bit About Benchmarks...&lt;/strong&gt;

...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Paul Jones&#8217; Blog: A Bit About Benchmarks&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Lukas</title>
		<link>http://paul-m-jones.com/archives/245/comment-page-1#comment-151089</link>
		<dc:creator>Lukas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paul-m-jones.com/blog/?p=245#comment-151089</guid>
		<description>Seems like my code got cut off. At any rate you can see the code here:
http://pooteeweet.org/public/microbenchmark_soap_cacheing.phps</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems like my code got cut off. At any rate you can see the code here:<br />
<a href="http://pooteeweet.org/public/microbenchmark_soap_cacheing.phps" rel="nofollow">http://pooteeweet.org/public/microbenchmark_soap_cacheing.phps</a></p>
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